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Disclaimer: All Text is reprodeced here with the premission of the writers. Some format has been changed to fit the site, but nothing else has been altered, not even typos. My views are only represented by what I say, not by what others say.
Ani: First off, Melanija, I think it's very probable that Peter would have knwn about the Philosopher's Stone. Ron knew about it, and Peter seems to have been carried around in Ron's pocket a bit. I think there was enough discussion amoungst the trio that Peter would have had a very good idea of what was going on. He may even have guessed what was going on sooner, having known Voldemort and all (I think he's smart, just lacking in the common sense god gave gravel) So here he's presented with the perfect chance to hep Voldemort back to life and hand over Harry to him, all by just changing back and whappping HArry on the head with a random item ^^;; quote: Remus, throughout the entire scene, tries to make sure everyone understands everything Honestly, I debate Remus's impartiality during all that. He clearly already believed Sirius, and didn't seem overly interested in Peter's explenation's at all. A lot of his commants, polite as they were, seemed downright mocking and belitteling. If I were Peter I would not of though Ah, here's someone who will hear me out. Though I agree with Asfea here, I think Peter was doing very little thinking at all. And he did try an express to Sirius that the Dark Lord had ways beyond Siriu's imagination (I don't have PoA on hand, but it's around the "He forced me....." "DON"T LIE" bit) *blinks* and Hey Peter does mentioned being forced. Maybe he's not lying? As for getting brownie points from the Dark Lord for confirming his theory, I jsut despute that entire idea. That goes back to the idea that Peter "Sold out" the Potter like Judas sold out Jesus. I don't see that. I see PEter closer to well St. PEter, who denied Christ three times out of fear that the guards would kill him if he acknowledged who he was. TO me one is less despicable than the other. I don't pay Sirius' "Greatest moment of your life" comment one bit. Ashfea, you bring up excellent points. Though you seem to thik PEter turned to the Dark side onhis own will *sticks tongue out* *L* quote: Once Peter had turned, that was it. Half-crazed with terror, he'd be no match for Voldemort's will. *nods* Yes I think people tend to overlook the sheer manipulative abilities opened to an unrestrained raging psychopath. Psychopaths are possible the greatest manipulators ever created and the are especially apt to pry on weak people like Peter. With his seemingly low self-esteem Peter practically has Psychopath-Bait stamped on his butt ^^;; He might not have even understood he was doing something wrong until it was too late (Hey Bagman used that argument -_-) And yes, I'm sure Voldemort would use any means at his disposal to assure that Peter was both telling the truth, and not going to tell the anyone else what was going on. I realize Voldemort is not infalliable because Snape managed to be a double agent, but I can't see Peter having the ability to play that game. He's much to easly manipulated and bullied. Gileonnen: The thing that no one ever seems to bring up when they say, "How could Peter value his own life over the life of others?" . . . How could James and Lily value their lives over Peter's? They knew the stakes. They knew that he could be tortured or killed. And James still said, "Oh, here, Peter, take our location into your soul; Lily and I are taking bets on how long it takes Voldemort to find you and axe you." I wouldn't do that to someone. I could not force someone to agree to choose my life over theirs. I say this because I could never trust myself to choose theirs over mine. Would you honestly be so selfish as to say, before even being under duress, that you would put someone else's life after yours? Peter might have betrayed James and Lily under torture; he might have betrayed them after long influence from Voldemort. We really can't know. James and Lily betrayed Peter straight off the bat. Reflect on this. Ani: Dang I hadn't considered it like that. certainly food for thought. Honestly I _never_ understood why they took someone else over Dumbeldore. Talk about kicking yourself in the butt. I guess they only asked because they thought they could keep Peter safe, but here's my question. Siriu's states that Peter was also in hiding "I went to check on his hiding place" So ok, they assume that Voldemort would quess they'd used Sirius. Pretty good logic there. So they switch, but then both Sirius _and_ Peter go into hiding? Sorry, but if I'm an evil overlord I'm gonna wonder why Peter also went into hiding and quite possible guess the switch, since a switch already makes logical sense, and decoys are a long and honored tradition. So next time Lil' Peter shows up at a meeting I torture the fudge outta him until he explains this all. Just my little, ehh Siri, your brillant plan has a hole. Also, for friths sake do not _ever_ give secrets to the weakest memeber of the group -_- I mean it's already understood amoung my friends not to tell me anything that could be tortured out of me, simply because the know me and my threshhold for pain ^^;; Never in gazillion years would I be me BF's secret Keeper, nor would she ask. Course, I guess I understand Sirius's position on not wanting to be one but really now Hey Peter, I don't want to do this because I might get caught, tortured and talk, so here you can do this and lets hope no one figures out who you are. Sirius has got to be one slick talker. Then again maybe Peter agreed to make up for all the wrongs he'd done. Or I know I know, maybe he agreed to get major brownie points from his master -_- My least favorit but I might as well ackowledge it. Melsanija: I could not force someone to agree to choose my life over theirs. What the hell are you talking about? Where did THAT come from?Nobody forced Peter to be Secret Keeper. It's probably impossible. He was asked to be a decoy. Asked. When he accepted, he knew thta he would cause the Potter's deaths. And at this point, the Potters still trust Peter, so why not use him, if he's willing? No one would suspect him. I always thought that Peter's friends saw something in him that the rest of the community couldn't, which is why they were friends. They probably gave him more credit than he deserved. But asking someone to help save your life, and the life of a BABY isn't selfish. He could have said no, that he wasn't strong enough, and that he was afraid he would die. I know this isn't the coolest thing to do in front of your friends, but when the stakes are this high, you have to be honest. And by the way, does no one else understand that there was a baby involved in this? Anyone who has a child, any sense of human compassion, or both, should be disgusted by the fact that Peter would indirectly murder someone so defenseless. And we don't know that Sirius wasn't in hiding as well. I don't think it's mentioned. But he could have snuck over to Peter's hiding place in dog form. Crying Raven: I like Peter. Not because without him we wouldn’t have any books to read, but I like the character. A lot. Not only do I like, he’s one of my favorite characters and I sympathize with him. I’d hate to open any of the following books and see him having a snogging session with a Dementor. It would make me mighty upset. If you murder the murderer, and if you rape the rapist... after that moment when you feel like justice have been carried out you have to stop to think of what you have become yourself. Let’s say that Voldemort had won all in all, and Peter had been on Dumbledore’s side... Had Peter not been punished by Voldemort? Possibly worse than he would have if Voldemort lost and he was the person he is now. One always aims to be on the winning side of a battle, either because you believe in it or because you can’t afford be on the losing side. Peter was one of the later, I believe. He did spy for Voldemort for a good while before this, but we don’t know why. Facing Voldemort, or a Death Eater for that matter, wouldn’t you too have tried to save yourself against tiny pieces of information? You could even try to keep it to simple things that they most likely already knew at first. It could even have been a matter of “you spy for us and we’ll let (enter someone very close to Peter) live, otherwise we’ll torture him/her before we kill them? as said before. Thus justifying spying, if not to save his own skin, but to save that persons. Now, Peter is smart, he’s a skilled wizard (there’s no other way to explain killing all those muggles, and as we hear later Sirius gets the credit for that and we hear how amazing, yet horrible, it is to kill so many like that). He might not have been great in transfiguration (thereof the need for help, and maybe not McGonagall’s favorite of the group), but he was an excellent wizard. What he lacked was bravery. Yet that must have been something he valued highly, higher than loyalty, intelligence and getting ahead in life, as he was a Gryffindor after all. That became his fall, plain simple. He didn’t dare to stand up to the Dark Lord, and die for it, and he was too afraid of what might be done to him if he had denied that he was the secret keeper. Besides, do we even know if the spell would remain intact if the secret keeper died? He might have thought that he could buy them time at first, saying that yes, he was the secret keeper, then hope Voldemort would wait long enough for him to tell someone who could warn the Potters. If we’re lucky, further books will tell. It’s a small chance, but it might have been his only chance to try to save everyone involved. I do believe that he had good reason for betraying the Potters. Or at least James, and possibly but rather unlikely Harry. We know that Lily was not meant to die, which leads me to believe that she probably was of interest for Voldemort. Why? The one thing that I can truly see being likely is that she was promised as a reward to a Death Eater, most likely Peter. Had Peter been in love with Lily, there would have been jealousy towards James, and most likely the thought of Harry wouldn’t be too amusing. He might have mentioned this for Voldemort, been blinded for his love for Lily (hoped that she would understand/considered it that he was at least saving her/etc), or maybe it was Voldemort’s idea of reminding him of the betrayal ?like he calls him Wormtail now (granted it keeps people from knowing who he really is, but one would think that another name could have been chosen). Yet?killing so many muggles and framing Sirius?Truth was, Voldemort was gone, Sirius was the only one who knew Peter was the secret keeper. He had no one to protect him, he knew Sirius would kill him, just as Remus would had he ever found out, he had very little choice. He had to get rid of Sirius somehow. There were only a few alternatives. A memory spell ?something that most likely wouldn’t have worked, as Sirius already knew what had happened and who had to be responsible for it and wouldn’t likely give Peter the chance of putting a spell on him. Thus, he had to do something drastic. Either kill Sirius, or make sure that no one would ever believe him if he told the truth. It seems that he chose the second alternative, my guess is that he didn’t actually want Sirius dead. Killing Sirius ?It would mean that he had to do it himself, I don’t think that Peter had the courage for that. To stand up to a former friend, a good wizard, and one who knew the truth and wouldn’t hesitate to do the same, or at least make sure Peter was destroyed one way or another. Framing Sirius ?The only alternative available. Granted, he had to make sure that no one could question if Sirius actually did it, thus risking himself. Ok, he killed too many people, but he really had to be sure that Sirius’s word would mean absolutely nothing. So he did what he did, and it was a great plan. No one can deny that. It would have worked perfectly, had it not been for the fact that Remus Lupin comes along and finds the Marauders?map. They would never have found him, he would have been safe. We can’t just let the fact that Sirius almost killed Snape pass. Obviously Sirius isn’t completely innocent either. He almost made his own friend a murderer. We know there is prejudge against werewolves too, but we don’t know about the punishments they receive. They are beasts after all, which sets them lower than both humans and beings, at least by terms, even if it is supposed to only count for that one night a month we don’t know if that way of looking on it reaches as far as to the laws. If Sirius was capable of something like that, could he really have been such a great person to begin with? When he comes out of Azkaban he is bitter, and he hates Peter. The way he describes Peter is not the same way Remus describes him, which most likely means that Sirius is, if not straight out lying, exaggerating. We can’t really take everything he says, especially about Peter and Snape, for granted. As said, he does try to avoid that Harry gets dragged into the whole re-embodiment of Voldemort. As Dumbledore said, at some point in the future Peter will repay his debt to Harry’s ?possibly failing to kill him because he just can’t, maybe even intentionally letting Harry go. But to be perfectly honest, I’m not sure I want Peter to redeem himself. I want to know the story behind MWPP from his perspective (he most certainly wouldn’t have gone “Sirius, you were always so cruel to me, etc.?in the Shrieking Shack), and I want to know why. But redeemed? No, not really. If the reasons for his actions are logical, or actions I would have done myself, I for one won’t blame him the slightest. Melanija: quote: I am really blown away by the fact that people are defending Peter. It makes me question the future of humanity. You, dear, have proven my point. Thank you. All you're saying is that it's OK for someone to whatever they want and get away with it, no matter what they did. You're saying that it's acceptable to kill people to cover your own a$$. According to you, we should all run around thinking about no one but ourselves. Sure, you threw in a few arguments, but I've already addressed them. All you argued was that Peter had every right to be self-centered, ungrateful, and completely devoid of any moral standards. That he was right to switch sides and fight for evil, since he could gain power. Basically, you just showed what Peter did. But you praised it instead of being sickened by it. I can respect Ani and the others, despite our opposite views on this topic, but your post, Raven, just makes me sick. I did not mean my last post to be an insult, even though I AM revolted by some of the things in Raven's post. I was trying to address them. And I mean, come on: quote: One always aims to be on the winning side of a battle, either because you believe in it or because you can’t afford be on the losing side. Peter was one of the later, I believe. Framing Sirius ?The only alternative available. It would have worked perfectly, had it not been for the fact that Remus Lupin comes along and finds the Marauders?map. They would never have found him, he would have been safe. After reading that, which looks worse: Raven's posting it or my calling her on it? But Raven does give us some insight into Peter's mind (mainly in the above quote): Me me me me me me me me. That's all Peter ever thought about. I never liked the idea that Peter was in love with Lily, just because I never believed he was THAT stupid. Lily would never talk to him again after that night. He could lie and say he was forced, but he was in hiding, his hideout showed no signs of a struggle... She was Head Girl, so she must have had some common sense. So why have two other people killed when it will just make the woman you love either hate you or die (and he must have had some idea of what she was going to do, I think it would have been foreseeable based on her personality)?And I doubt Voldemort would spare her just for Peter. He had no problem with killing people, and wouldn't spare someone unless in somehow served him. Ani: It's ok, actually I'm not sure if what you did could be considered a flame since you did specificaly say it was the post that sickened you not the person herself *Shrugs* Then again, good cautionary note from Ashfea (And explenation by melanija) since I'd hate for the mods to come after this thread becuase they think we're getting unruly ^^;; Umm actually wow, I have to say that I'm not sure I agree with some of what was said in Crying Raven's post. quote: One always aims to be on the winning side of a battle, either because you believe in it or because you can’t afford be on the losing side. Peter was one of the later, I believe. Ok, changing sides should have nothing to do with whose winning or losing. If that's your sole reason for turning, then ummm yes that's horrible. If you give in to beliefs and practices when you belive them to be morally and ethically wrong simply because you do not want to face the possible execution that'll come if they do win then you are a despicable coward. It's exactly that kind of thinking that lets horrible people come to power. However: Crying Raven goes on to say: quote: You could even try to keep it to simple things that they most likely already knew at first. It could even have been a matter of “you spy for us and we’ll let (enter someone very close to Peter) live, otherwise we’ll torture him/her before we kill them? as said before. Thus justifying spying, if not to save his own skin, but to save that persons. This I think is maybe more what she meant when she said "You can't afford to be on the losing side" In that scenerio your faced with two choices, both of what compromise yur morals. Spy and compromise what you believe in, or say no and allow some of the very people you might be fighting for the most to die. Either way you have to make a "wrong" choice. It would come down to which do you believe is ultimately the worst choice. (I would spy, because I feel very strongly for my friends and family. Plus I always give the "wrong" answer to the who should die, your best friend or 200 strangers.) I do realize Peter also eventually betreyed his friends, but I can I think that's the sliding furhter and further along the dark path until you simply can't pull out. Plus the torture ^^;; I'm also going to agree with Melanija and disagree with Crying Raven over the Lily issue. I do _not_ believe that Peter wanted Lily, nor do I believe he would have let James and Harry die to get to her. That take a whole other kind of monster than what I see Peter being. It also sounds like a bad murder mystery plot ^^;;; I do like your insight into Voldemort calling him "Wormtail" though. I always jsut thought it was JKR stuck him with this stupid villinous name and was gonna use it. But your right it is kinda lemon juince on the wound. Not only does it remind hi of his past, but think before, only his closest freidns called him that, so if Voldemort calls him that it's kinda of constant remind of who Peter's closet friend is now (Peter needs new friends, yes? ^^; Ok another point, I do not believe that framing Sirius was the only chioce Peter had. In my opinion what he did to Sirius and the fact that he still has not cleared his friends name is a more stunning example of cowerdice than his behavior around Voldemort. Now I'm not saying I could stand up and throw myself to dementors either, but I don't think it was the right choice or best choice be any means. I have , however, considered the possiblity that the frame and or kill Sirius might have been an extension of the whole killing the Potters plan. You know, removing two birds with one stone? If Peter's been programmed via torture, he'd likely carry it out whether Voldemort was dead or not, and that would explain his silence and his subsequent behavior in front of Remus. *shrugs* just a pet theory. I have too many of them Now like crying Raven said, I can't condemn Peter because I can't say I wouldn't do just what he did, however logical as they are they are _not_ right and he needs to be redeemed. (again IMHO) I can understand. I can sympathize and all, but he's still wrong and needs to make up for what he's done, if not for the betrayal of Lily and James and Harry (yes I remember the baby that should ahve died) then at least for his treatment of Sirius. One finale though, the idea of what happens if the SE is interesting. Would James and Lily have been lost forever, with no one knowing where they were ^^;; Gileonnen: Peter was afraid. Of almost everything, actually. When I was a little kid, I'd make my sister come with me when I went to the bathroom. I was afraid of the monster in the closet. I thought that it would come out and get me if I couldn't run. And, I reasoned, if my sister were there, she'd be closer to the closet and if the monster came out, it would get her first, and then maybe it wouldn't be hungry anymore. That was some of the worst moralizing I've ever done. I feel sickened for doing that to my sister; even though the monster wasn't real, the fact that I was valuing my own life over hers absolutely makes me sick. Peter was afraid of the monster. The monster was in front of him and behind him and all around him, and no one else could see that the monster was going to get him, so they didn't think it necessary to hold his hand. They 'knew' that he was safe. Peter thought he knew better, but after all, he was the little one. He'd been the lag-behind all his life because he had little magical power. Maybe he was wrong? Maybe he was safe after all? With the bravery of a child, he screwed himself up to find out whether that monster was real. And no one would go with him to open that closet door; to prove with him that he was safe. But when Peter opened that closet door, the monster was real! It tried to devour him--but he promised the monster that he would do anything not to be eaten. Any of us would have, because we all make promises when we're terrified. But the monster had ways to make Peter keep his promises. The monster marked him with a nasty brand on his arm. The monster could hurt him and hurt him and hurt him, and when pain was not sharp enough, the monster could threaten the world he knew and the people he loved. The monster could do the worst thing--not eat him whole, but chew at him and chew at him. Maybe he decided at long last to take James and Lily into the place where he knew the monster lived, because they were big and strong and he hated the monster, and because if it got them first, it might not be hungry for him later. It was the wrong choice. It was a child's choice, not the choice of a grown man. And I know that he's condemnable for it. But don't you feel such sympathy for the child who says there's a monster in the closet? Don't you remember when you were afraid like that? How can you condemn a man who was afraid? The FAP Peter Debate Anakin's Peter Rants Other Peter Fans(yes, others do exist!) |