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Disclaimer: All Text is reprodeced here with the premission of the writers. Some format has been changed to fit the site, but nothing else has been altered, not even typos. My views are only represented by what I say, not by what others say.
Ani: quote: And, I reasoned, if my sister were there, she'd be closer to the closet and if the monster came out, it would get her first, and then maybe it wouldn't be hungry anymore. If it makes you feel any better, I had that reasoning all the time. Actually if I can wax a little OT here (I have a point): Part of the reason I don't feel like I can condemn Peter is because of this dream I had prior to reading PoA. First off, I ahve an irrational terror of someone being in my room who shouldn't be there. I will scream if my roomate touches the door and I'm asleep. She can drop pots and pans, doens't wake me, she turn the door knob and I'm upright in my bed, yelling and looking for a palce to hide. (this is completely irrational also. No one has ever broken into my room before, so this isn't a trauma reaction) So, I wake up thinking I can here this alarm sound and I'm completely convinced that this is the evil person alarm and that Voldemort has entered my room and is standing beside the bed. (My mind works ins trange way) My oh so wonderful first rational thought was, "Don't move, you're on the top loft he won't see you, he'll only see Chrissy (my Best friend here -_-) so maybe he'll only kill her and not you too". Lovely huh? To my credit about 4 seconds later I jumped out of bed (nearly dying because I am on the top) screaming her name and proceeded stumble around the room. I then got to try and explain to someone who hasn't read Harry Potter at all what I thought I was doing while aplogizing repeatedly for being an unworthy friend. Then I go and read PoA that Christmas and gosh darn it if I don't relate to Peter -_- Anyway, yeah I did eventualy try to warn/protect her, (ever so effectvely, my plan was apperently to fight of Voldemort by stumbeling at him) but for a bit there I was too scared to even move, and my survival instinct kicked in with the ever selfish "better her than me". The fight or flight response is very hard to overcome and I have most definantly the flight response. Some peopel do, other (like my BF) have a very strong fight response. I think that might be a personality difference between Peter and is friends. Unfortunantly ahving a strong flight response can lead to do some really stupid things >_< (Well so can the fight but society tends to look better on that) And your're right Gil, a lot of Peter's reasoning (even in GoF0 seems very childish. Though I guess he did not do much growing up as a rat. Artemisu: Peter has the most motives to do anything, and is probably one of the most complex characters in the story (as many 'villians' are wont to be) Peter becomes friends with James, Sirius, and Remus. As Sirius says, in PoA American paperback version, chapter nineteen (the servent of lord voldemort), pg. 369: "...sneak around people who were stronger and more powerful... always liked big friends who'd look after you... It used to be us... me and Remus... and James." So we know he was their friend for his own protection (as continued on pg370: "...you never did anything for anyone unless you could see what was in it for you.") Learning from the spoken characterizations of Sirius, Remus, Peter, and James, it is known that James and Sirius were 'exceptionally bright', and '...such a pair of troublemakers...' (Minerva McGonagall, pg 206), and that Peter 'Hero-worshipped Black and Potter, Never quite in their league, talent-wise...' (McGonagall, pg 207). So Peter wasn't that bright, and probably had them help in class. But then the question is WHY would he be able to become friends with James and Sirius if he seemed to be leeching off of them? Knowing that James and Sirius were the two most popular students in school at the time (note Severus Snape's inate dislike for James due to the fact he 'flaunted' his Quidditch talent, the fact James was Head-boy, and that pictures of a younger Sirius prove that he was very much 'eye-candy' for some). Peter obviously became their friend in either first or second year, due to the fact it is mentioned that the animagus training took three years, and was completed in fifth year. So the training was started middle of second year. James and Sirius would probably have known that Remus was a werewolf for a few months before coming up with the idea, and it would take another few months before employing it, so they probably knew he was a werewolf by October of their second year. Since Peter was included in this, he was obviously given a great deal of trust when the group were only eleven-thirteen. As it seems that outside of the Gryffindors of Peter's year, only Severus Snape knew about Remus' lycanthropy, that Peter kept this secret well (along with the Animagi abilities, the Marauders' Map, et cetera) So, when Peter is not threatened, he is a very trustworthy friend, capable of keeping secrets, maintaining friendships, and in all ways is a completely normal human being. Skip ahead a few years, and Voldemort is after James Potter. For one full year, no one is sure who is leaking information to Voldemort. Only when the charm is cast and fails, does Sirius Black realize Peter was the spy. So Peter is good at lying, at acting, and for feigning innocence. We know that Peter went to Voldemort for protection. But, was the protection solely for the use of Peter alone? He doesn't do anything unless he gains something, so it is obvious that his own protection was key. But, seeing as how James and Lily had been good friends to Peter, I'm rather positive he didn't do it just for his own safety. I think that, perhaps, Peter may have been trying to protect Remus and/or Sirius, as well. Or maybe his own mother. James dies, Lily dies, Voldemort dies, and there is an enraged Sirius Black, and many many Death Eaters that know Peter is the reason for all three (Sirius seems to convieniantly forget the third, while the Death Eaters ommit the first two). Somehow, I think Peter allowed himself to be caught by Sirius. After all, it was in the middle of a muggle street, surrounded by people. How easy would it have been for him to simply become a rat and flee? And, if he got caught by Sirius, he knew exactly what he would be dealing with, after having spent the last nine or so years as the man's friend, spending nearly every day for seven years in the same room. If he hadn't been caught by Sirius, it would have been some Death Eater, and they are wont to bloodshed and torture before death. So he gets himself caught by Sirius, (most likely accidentally) kills twelve innocent people, and goes into hiding. Sirius gets taken to Azkaban. After all, if Sirius goes to Azkaban with the tags of having killed Peter Pettigrew, death eaters will not go after him (or his mother [or even Remus, if Peter likes him. Hey, it might even be protection for Sirius, in his confused mind]) for retreband. He hides out with a Wizard family, so he can keep up with the wizarding world. Sirius Black escapes, and Peter (probably realizing that it was his picture in the Daily Prophet that got Sirius' attention) fakes his own death again and hides out with Hagrid. Gets caught, and tries to escape, until Sirius gets him. He begs for his life. and escapes, again. As mentioned somewhere earlier, Peter's pleas to voldemort may have been for the continuing safety of Harry, or so that V rises sooner, so that Peter wouldn't have to fear Sirius again. I think it is both. After all, when Peter cut Harry for his blood, Peter didn't meet Harry's eyes. Ashamed. I can relate to Peter. He's human. Voldemort's been in hiding for fifteen years, they say he's half dead. You weren't about to commit murder right under Albus Dumbledore's nose, for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all his power, were you? You'd want to be quite sure he was the biggest bully in the playground before you went back to him, wouldn't you? Why else did you find a wixz Melanija: : Ani and I agree for once-never thought I'd see it happen. It's nice though. Fear. I hate to be the mean one and point out: Everyone was afraid. Lily and James were afraid. They went into hiding, they were so scared. Dumbledore was scared. He was willing to risk his life, he was so scared for Lily and James. Arthur Weasley was afraid. We saw it in GoF. And according to him, every other member of the wizarding community was scared. So why did only a few people act as spies? Or DEs? Wouldn't it be more logical for EVEYONE to just give up and surrender to Lord Voldemort? Sure. Probably. But only a small percentage of the population turned. And besides, Peter was a grown man, probably early twenties. He needed to grow up. He had no right to still be thinking like a child, unless he had some sort of obvious mental or developmental disorder (which he doesn't). Even if he HAD been still locked in that frame of childlike reasoning, by the time he finished school and things had gotten really bad, he should have had a wakeup call. You don't go through things like that without growing up very quickly. And I still firmly maintain that Dumbledore could have helped Peter and whomever Voldemort was threatening, if Peter had only asked. Crying Raven: melanija, not offended at all. It's just that I don't see humans as any higher than animals. The only things we hold against them are our questionable intelligence and technology. The basic ways of life are still the same. On the other hand I don't praise Peter's behavior. It isn’t right, considering the morals and the laws we are brought up with, to act like he did, but I would never be able to guarantee that I wouldn’t do something similar until I was put in that position myself. I don’t think that running around caring about no one but ourselves is a way of life that you should aim for, but it is only natural that you come first hand in your own mind. Exception being protecting your own spawn, I guess. Peter had every right to be self-centered, ungrateful, and completely devoid of any moral standards?He is human. Being self-centered and ungrateful is something a lot of people get accused off, because they might not feel that it’s right for them to go along with some things. It doesn't mean that they are. Morals... it all depends on what you are brought up with and your influences through life. Even so every human has the ability to cross the line where they would kill. Some people just don’t need as much encouragement as others. He was right to switch sides and fight for evil, since he could gain power.?Evil is a term I wouldn’t use, because, despite risking of sounding like Quirrel, good and evil only exist in the human mind. It’s a way to make us feel better about the things that we do (’The side I’m fighting for is the right one, the other is obviously evil and corrupt therefore it is ok for me to kill in battle?etc.) There are only different sides, with different opinions and different arguments. As for the power... I think it was more a matter of fearing Voldemort more than the Ministry. The Ministry wouldn’t have the right to torture him, while Voldemort was not only known for doing so, but could easily turn on your loved ones in order to get what he wanted from you. I don’t believe that Peter’s possible feelings towards Lily were a main factor in his action, more like a thorn in the side. I don’t think he wanted Harry dead at all, or that he would himself go as far as to kill James. I meant that Voldemort could have picked up on it, and used it against Peter. Even though Dumbledore most likely could have helped Peter, that isn't what's important. It is if Peter thought he would. Dumbledore is supposed to be 'good' and forgiving, but Peter would probably not think that Dumbledore would forgive him for spying for as long as he had, felt more and more hopeless and eventually the little hope of help from Dumbledore's side was gone. Gileonnen:: Melanija, you have obviously never had something you thought was worth hiding from your parents. Dumbledore is the Father of this series; if I'm going to get Christian-symbolism-ey on you, Dumbledore, Harry, and James are pretty much the Trinity incarnate (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost--I'm not Christian, not pushing a religion, just making a point). As the father, his approval is paramount. Everyone is viewed as his son or daughter; some hold to their father's morals and descisions, enforcing the 'family' theme of the books; those who do not hold to their father are the ones in the wrong. Picture a child raised to the idea that he's loved and cared for; that his father can't wait for the child to grow up, marry, and have children of his own. The father's love is unconditional, of course, because the father is a kind and loving man. He is happy with his child not because the child will fulfill expectations, but because he loves his son. The son has never really met expecations. He does badly in school, but not because he doesn't try; he just doesn't have the skill. And he feels so sorry that he's not living up to the dreams his father set before him. The love is still coming from his father, but the son begins to see his own dissatisfaction in himself in his father (though it isn't really there). Over time, the son begins to realize that he is gay. And this terrifies him; he knows that his father always wanted those grandchildren, that daughter-in-law, and he's been such a disappointment already! How can he totally crush the man who's given him love and support and encouragement? How can he fail so utterly to live up to his father's dreams? How can he face the disapproval? Peter might not have gone to Dumbledore for this very reason--he feared the disapproval of a father figure whom he already sees as disappointed. He has such utter love and respect for the man, despite his betrayal of this man's values, that he fears to show how far he's strayed from expectations. Maybe if you don't say anything, it will go away and you can be what he wants you to be. Maybe if you don't mention it, he'll figure it out for himself and either help you come to terms with it as he did with your bad grades, or he'll find some way to get you out of it. But if you tell him, you affirm that you have chosen this path; that your faults are something you've accepted as unchangeable. Even if you ask for help, he'll always see you as the gay son. He'll always see you as the Death Eater. Even if you are redeemed, his mental image of you will never be redeemed. That might be the type of thing Peter was thinking about when he didn't go to Dumbledore. Again, a child's choice. Again, made out of fear. But again, is it so wrong to love someone so much that you're terrified of his disapproval? On other subjects people have brought up I don't believe in good or evil, either. I think that everything Crying Raven said on that account is absolutely true. You don't necessarily grow up quickly in times of strife. I'm still very much the child I was at 9:00 EST, 9/11/01. 9:45 did not make me grow up. Almost a year, and I keep my naivete; I am still a little girl who thinks that hitting people is bad and that you should always share and that my safety is my first priority. Some people do not grow up. Some people still get mad if others touch their toys; some of these are the ones who won't let weapons inspectors into their countries. Some people still like to pull girls' hair; some of these are the ones who are rapists. Some people still want the red crayon from their classmate's box that still has its paper on it; some of these are the ones who rob banks. Crimes are committed by child-minded people in an adult world. Melanija: Dumbledore: My point is, if Peter or someone close to him had been threatened, Peter could have gone to Dumbleodre without any reason for shame. However, this only works if the threat had been the first communication between Peter and Voldemort. He had the choice to join Voldie or be tortured (or subject someone he cared about to torture). At this point, he could have reported it to Dumbledore. The fact that Peter became the Potter's Secret Keeper is what really bothers me with the whole "He-Only-Joined-Voldemort-Because-He-Had-To" theory. If he was really loyal to the Potters, why would he take on this responsibility when he knew that there was no way he would be unable to tell Voldemort of their location? quote: You don't necessarily grow up quickly in times of strife. I'm still very much the child I was at 9:00 EST, 9/11/01. 9:45 did not make me grow up. I'm not trying to get into your personal life, but I'm going on the assumption that you weren't in the Pentagon, World Trade Center, or Somerset, PA that day, and that you aren't a member of al-Qaeda or the FBI/CIA. My point with Peter is, he was in the thick of it, mainly because of his friends. He was in danger, his loved ones were in danger, and he probably knew things most members of the wizarding community didn't. Ani: If he was really loyal to the Potters, why would he take on this responsibility when he knew that there was no way he would be unable to tell Voldemort of their location? Welll I see severl possiblities there. 1) He thought of it as maybe a way of redeming himself. If he could do this, keep them safe, it would make up for every other betrayal he'd done already as a spy. So he really thought he could keep it secret, and protect James, Lily, Harry and Sirius. 2) He could see no way to refuse Sirius without compromising hismelf and making Sirius and/or James and Lily supicios. 3) Sirius is just that bloody persuasive and Peter is that much of a short sighted fool. 4) Forced to accept it by Voldemrot who already knew thy were going to use the charm (I see that as unlikely though because they made the switch because of Sirius's suggestion) 5) Peter's totally amoral and did it for the praise he'd get from Voldie, in which cases he's well I ahven't words for that kind of stupidity and treachery, but to me that take more of an amoral personality than Peter has displayed. quote: My point with Peter is, he was in the thick of it, mainly because of his friends. He was in danger, his loved ones were in danger, and he probably knew things most members of the wizarding community didn't. *shrugs* MAybe that's why he lsot so much hope and it was so easy tog et to him. He knew how bad things were going. Once a person loses hope they're very easy to control, IMHO. Also, I don't think being in the thick of things would necessarily make better contemplate things in a more mature manner. Heck, constantly being scared is probably more of a determient to the thought process, making the decisions less rational for an adults POV. quote: My point is, if Peter or someone close to him had been threatened, Peter could have gone to Dumbleodre without any reason for shame. *nods ok Valid point. I ahve no doubt Peter could have gone to Dumbeldore and gotten help. It becomes a question then of did Peter think he could? My point is one of the easiest ways to keep a person silent is to get them to believe that no one will believe them, or listen to them (*sough* and in fact Remus and Sirius did neither ^^; and that going to the authorities will only ause more trouble. Develing a little into fandom here: I se a lot of stories which depict Peter as a bit outside the loop with Dumbeldore and the group. If that was so then maybe he simply didn't realize how seperated Dumbeldore was from the ministry. Then again, we don't even know how seperated he was. We only know he is now. That's all conjecture though. quote: I meant that Voldemort could have picked up on it, and used it against Peter. Ahh ok, yes then I can see that. Psycopaths are extremely good at zeroing in on a weakness and exploiting it to it's fullest. For Peter, Voldemort seemed to have his pick of bottons to push. Melanija:On becoming Secret Keeper: quote: 1) He thought of it as maybe a way of redeming himself. If he could do this, keep them safe, it would make up for every other betrayal he'd done already as a spy. So he really thought he could keep it secret, and protect James, Lily, Harry and Sirius. 2) He could see no way to refuse Sirius without compromising hismelf and making Sirius and/or James and Lily supicios. 3) Sirius is just that bloody persuasive and Peter is that much of a short sighted fool. I think that after a year, Peter would have picked up on Voldemort's ability to practically read minds. He couldn't have believed that he was that much stronger than everyone else. And you have to admit, Peter would be the obvious fake-out. Voldemort was very clever, remember. Peter would just have to point this out, and they would have looked for someone more obscure. And I doubt that Dumbledore would turn anyone in danger away. Peter would have to know this, no matter how close they were. Jaak Look at the situation when Peter first found out about Voldemort's interest in him. We know that the Potters did not know they were in danger until a spy told Dumbledore. It follows that if Peter had told his friends or Dumbledore that Voldemort is threatening him and demanding information about their activities, it would have been both embarrassing failure for Voldemort AND an important giveaway about his plans. Therefore, I think that Voldemort took precautions about it not happening. I think Voldemort would have told Peter that if Peter, instead of spying, goes back to his friends and does not betray him, Voldemort would go after Peter and that Peter's friends, including Dumbledore, would not be able to protect Peter. Peter obviously believed it. Quite possibly it was even believable! Voldemort would have used his sense of people lying to make sure that Peter really believes it. End The FAP Peter Debate Anakin's Peter Rants Other Peter Fans(yes, others do exist!) |